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Post by davearchbold on Jan 8, 2012 12:12:41 GMT
Following the Chairmans letter issued on Saturday 7th January 2012 and displayed in various places within the club house it seems we should await the 'Workshops' that are to be arranged BEFORE any decision on this subject is progressed/discussed further. If this statement by the chairman had been issued soon after the AGM last November we may have avoided the unfounded speculation and rumour that have abounded since.All members with thoughts on the matter both for and against should make careful detailed notes on their reasons and be prepared to voice them at the 'Workshops' so that the 'committee' are fully aware of the true feelings of all members. Expecting other members to 'fire the shots' is not good enough. The ball tube has been in place for at least 30 years and apart from Saturday/Sunday mornings and the odd Bank Holiday works perfectly well for the majority of members. There surely must be a compromise in this decision. If the club's finances are as bad as is suggested, gaining a few extra visitors green fees is not going to fix it. Perhaps the committee should look at reducing the clubs overheads at the same time as increasing the revenue.
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Post by kevnixon on Jan 8, 2012 20:17:01 GMT
I look forward to the workshops. Some good points made above however i don't agree the ball tube doesn't work or rather "is abused" on weekends and bank hols only. Interesting that you make reference to the ball tubes presence for such a long time and the possible plight of the clubs finances maybe the 2 go hand in hand. The new course at close house, slaley hall, linden, burgham, Matfen - not a ball tube in sight. If a bank had refused to offer Internet banking in the last 10 years would it still be in existence? I doubt it. Members may not realise the financial implications of a lack of visitors to our club, and see them but this will play a major role in the future of this club, and there is no question due to the fact that the inability to request a time to play golf at results in potential visitors putting down the phone and ringing Whitley bay golf club or dare I say it centurion park instead.
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Post by davearchbold on Jan 10, 2012 10:58:09 GMT
Re entry from kevnixon above. the six courses you mention do not compare with TGC at all, they are all 'out in the sticks' where most people/ and members would require a tee time before undertaking a massive return journey. I'm reliably informed that Foxton(out in the sticks again) may have been the model for our proposed change to on line booking. If this is true we could not have got a less similar club to TGC. TGC is unique because the majority of members( I would estimate about 60 to 70%) live within 3 miles of the course and have very little travel time making the ball tube very attractive and convenient. My suggested compromise situation needs further study, Saturday/Sunday mornings + some BHs (Like Monday 2/1/12 when everyone was off work) probably warrants a starting sheet situation. The chairmans suggestion that we wait 1 to 2 hours at the ball tube on a regular basis is absolutely outragious and misleading. I play the course as much as anyone 5 days a week and the only time I have a wait is Saturday mornings before 11am. Sorry Kev sort me out and we'll compare notes on the subject.
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Post by Johnny Miller on Jan 10, 2012 20:52:10 GMT
I agree with most of the above. I was a member at Burgham for ten years before moving to TGC, and yes the benefits of being guaranteed a tee time were more relevant when I had a 40 mile round trip to consider. I can also see that the ball tube has been perfectly useable during the week and at quieter times.
The problem for me is on competition days. I have turned up at noon on a Saturday (more than once) and waited until 1:30-2:00 to tee off. Not only this, but I have also witnessed groups waiting, with a ball in the tube ready to go, remove their ball and disappear into the clubhouse when it started to rain, only to return to the queue when the weather cleared. My belief is that there should be designated tee times for weekend competitions, and if your slot happens to be during the worst of any bad weather then unfortunately that is just the luck of the draw. (I remember Tiger at Muirfield)
However, the argument for increased green fee income is also a valid point. At the moment, as far as I can see, there is no system for monitoring how busy the course is. With the introduction of a booking system we would have definitive visibility of quieter periods, which could then be marketed at potential visitors, societies etc. bringing revenue to the club.
As a visitor to any club, I personally would much rather be able to turn up at an agreed time, and in turn would be much more likely to have factored in time to have a drink and a bite to eat after my round, rather than drag my clubs to through the car park and then stand watching them for an hour (probably an exaggeration, but you can see where I'm coming from) and then have to rush off afterwards to go shopping with 'er indoors.
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Post by davearchbold on Jan 10, 2012 22:16:24 GMT
Johnny, I agree with you, competition days is crying out for a starting sheet up to a certain time say 12noon or even 2pm. Anyone who works or has other 'am' committments could start later up to 6.30pm in high summer on the ball tube. Visitors cannot play on competition days so that day is removed from the equation. My previous comments re Sundays and Bank Holidays apply. No matter what system we use there will be abuse, where online or starting sheet systems are in being there are numerous occasions when people book then fail to turn up for weather or various other unknown reasons. How do we deal with that problem? If it pees down 6am till 12noon, and no body turns up to play, do we impose penalties on members who are paying £650/year to play golf? Do we bar them from a number of competitions? Can you cancel your 6.30am tee time and re book for 2pm when the rain stops. This is all food for thought to be thrashed out at the 'Workshops' A compromise is needed, the ball tube suits a proven majority of members at Tynemouth but a few adjustments as suggested by numerous members for specific days would fine tune the system to suit even more members and their domestic/work committments.
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Post by kevnixon on Jan 11, 2012 15:47:54 GMT
I have on regular occasions attended the club on a Wednesday morning between April to September and waited 1-2 hrs to play golf.
If you went to the cinema would you enjoy waiting in your seat 2 hours before the film starts. I'm sure the cinema would lose customers.
With regards to being out in the sticks may I add Whitley, Tyneside, arcot and Newcastle united to my list where a tee booking system works well.
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Post by Johnny Miller on Jan 11, 2012 21:21:54 GMT
Arcot only use tee bookings for competitions....other than that you put your initials on a board by the first tee and wait....
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Post by williamfletcher on Jan 12, 2012 10:17:00 GMT
First, I am in favour of keeping the ball tube. There will be wholesale abuse of any system and an on-line booking system will be no different.
The main difference is that instead of standing waiting for your turn on a Saturday morning, (when your ball is lying number 6 in the tube and you hate the ball tube), you will be at home because there were no times available when you tried to book. The guys who cheat the ball tube will have block booked all the times, leaving you the whole day to take the wife shopping at the Metro Centre.
I play regularly at Morpeth, we are given a precise tee time of say 12.36, when we arrive we are normally told to go whenever we are ready as most of the times booked have not turned up. Not great for a club trying to attract visitors when there are no times available yet no one is on the first tee.
Our own club rules require 30 members to vote for an EGM, this will then result in a vote to change the booking system, we can avoid this if we have a vote on the same basis as currently proposed in Scotland, a simple YES or NO. I will happily stand by any decision voted on by the members.
Finally, the chairman of the committee has produced a written statement in which he seeks to deride the TOGS en-mass, and others who disagree with him over this issue, this is the behaviour of a dictator who might not get his own way, not the chairman of a democratically elected golf club committee.
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Post by kevnixon on Jan 12, 2012 10:41:15 GMT
So of the 20 or so clubs in the county I believe we are the only one that uses a ball tube. Surely if the ball tube was such an efficient method they would all use it. I don't see why people are so against the use of a system used by 98% of clubs in our country. Re the chairmans letter I believe the figures stated tell there own storyI
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Post by davearchbold on Jan 12, 2012 10:55:02 GMT
Thank you Mr Fletcher for your support on this matter. Re Kevin Nixon's last entry, we have recently tested the Whitley Bay system where several friends and colleagues are members. The system we are told is a complete fiasco. The main reason being that members and visitors book a tee time and fail to attend leaving the course vacant on numerous occasions, the same thing clearly happens at Morpeth (per Bill Fletcher). You can hardly compare a golf club to a cinema, I have attended numerous cinema's here and in the States over the past 10 years and I can only recall twice being unable to get a seat because it was full. I play every day in the summer and winter about 11.30 to 12.30 and I cannot recall being held up for more than 15 minutes at the most. Lets give factual information in this debate, Kevin you need to vary your starting time slightly and you'll have no bother. Read the entry above re Morpeth, do you have an answer to that situation?
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M
New Member
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Post by M on Jan 12, 2012 11:24:55 GMT
Re - the Ball Tube. I've been a member for almost 40 years. Throughout that time the ball tube has worked well. I think that on only one occasion I've had to wait an hour. Almost always the waiting time is around 20 minutes, enough time to get your equipment and shoes sorted in the locker room. I was a member at Arcot for a while and, equally, their blackboard system worked just as well. Perhaps even better for, unlike the ball tube, it was not annonymous.
There appears to be conflicting information around current proposals. An understanding was given at the AGM that the intention is to have a full discussion with the members before any changes are implemented. On such an emotive issue it would be very heavy handed and ill conceived for the Committee to impose a change on members without a vote. It is sincerely hoped that the membership be afforded this respect. It is an obvious anticipation that the membership would be led to force a vote if one is not arranged by the Committee.
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M
New Member
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Post by M on Jan 12, 2012 11:26:03 GMT
Re - the Ball Tube. I've been a member for almost 40 years. Throughout that time the ball tube has worked well. I think that on only one occasion I've had to wait an hour. Almost always the waiting time is around 20 minutes, enough time to get your equipment and shoes sorted in the locker room. I was a member at Arcot for a while and, equally, their blackboard system worked just as well. Perhaps even better for, unlike the ball tube, it was not annonymous.
There appears to be conflicting information around current proposals. An understanding was given at the AGM that the intention is to have a full discussion with the members before any changes are implemented. On such an emotive issue it would be very heavy handed and ill conceived for the Committee to impose a change on members without a vote. It is sincerely hoped that the membership be afforded this respect. It is an obvious anticipation that the membership would be led to force a vote if one is not arranged by the Committee.
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Post by jamesdawson on Jan 12, 2012 12:02:37 GMT
The point about waiting times is seemingly taking over from the bigger picture of generating much needed funds through active promotion of visitor tee-times. I am sure from the proposed workshops and with the constructive input of members with skills / experience in such projects a balance can be found. Some times, I think it is clear, must be made available for alloted bookings, some times, I think it's also quite clear, could be left alone under some form of 1st come 1st served (not necessarily and anonymous and therefore abusable ball-tube) system. If the investment is being made in an online system then there are many solutions. A members ID code for example that you pop into a starters computer - this is an idea I'd like to discuss and propose at any workshops as it allows the combination of both systems. Pop in your ID in the clubhouse / changing rooms and you'll be generated the next available tee-time. This does the same job as a ball-tube but removes the anonimity. If you're at the tee 5 mins before your time as you should be and nobody is on the 1st then one, you can clearly go! ...and 2, if you take 2 mins of your time when you finish you will know who should have been in front of you on the course. Instant penalties are not practical but if members repeatedly book times and fail to adhere to them then of course it becomes an issue... Much food for thought still!
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Post by jamesdawson on Jan 12, 2012 12:08:34 GMT
On a separate note, I would like to see more random draw competitions at the club, I think they can be very positive for the integration of groups and members social interaction. I spend a lot of time on the course and still know many more faces than names and could count on one hand the number of members I could happily arrange a game with, that despite getting involved in friendly matches, playing the singles & doubles etc... I'd suggest at least one competition a month should be either random drawn pairs or a full random draw, to encourage more varied playing groups. I know we all like to get out with friends but a balance would be good. Might stop the in-fighting and divisive nature of such arguments as the ball-tube and course amendments too... Who knows!
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Post by kevnixon on Jan 12, 2012 13:23:52 GMT
James I agree with your views on random draws.
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